Shades of Gray?
“You know SoJo….the entire time I was reading the comments I was thinking that maybe this is something folks need to bring up when they have their “talk”. Assuming that responsible adults all have a talk at some point (hopefully before they get nekkid) then that’s as good a time as any to just ask.”
~DivaInDemand~
After my experience last week, I left somewhat confused. The psychologist in me was definitely curious about other people’s opinions -especially since I had been texting Kindred back and forth thru the entire conversation like I was at a ball game. Our exchange went several different places so I thought that I would also bring it here to see what you guys thought. What I noticed at the table was that the responses (with the exception of my own) was divided by gender.
As I sit back and reflect, I wonder if the word “rape” had never been entered into the discussion – would the dialogue have been less charged. To clarify, only the original person on Twitter and one of the wives mentioned “rape”. None of the other women compared it to that extreme. But like butter, once that word is spread – you really can’t take it back.
From the male perspective, that is one of the worst accusations that you can make against a man, with the other exception being child molester. So to place an otherwise good man’s name in the same sentence as one of the most vile accusations can be (and was that night) positively devastating. I honestly don’t know how the husband and wife will reconcile that revelation in their marriage. None of the men (including you commenters) saw an issue w/ sleep luv, regardless of the relationship you have with the woman. In fact, some of you welcome the shoe being on the other foot [insert shocked face here].
For the women, it was a little different. I noticed on the blog, while most you ladies sided with the men – there was a slight deviation when we talked about being married and our sexual interactions with our husbands, as opposed to our significant others. All of the wives here agree that free exchange (including sleep love) is part of being a married couple. But then, I noticed that there was a differentiation between whether or not that same exchange is understood when you’re lovers or boyfriend/girlfriend.
I was surprised by the solidarity among the ladies at the table. There was one there who had only had one partner in her entire life and one was a self-proclaimed reformed ho, so it wasn’t as if the table was full of the same TYPE of women. Both said that they felt that sleep sex was a violation. When asked if they’d ever shared that with their partners, the reformed ho said that it was hard for her to explain what seemed to be a contradiction. She enjoyed rough sex, bondage, choking etc., but felt violated by not being awake to give consent.
They compared it to the drunk, passed out chick that wakes up to find that she’s had sex with the sober guy. He knew what he was doing at the time, but she did not. One of the worst things to happen to a woman sexually is to truly feel as though she is not in control of her body. Even those who play S&M games ultimately still retain some form of personal control. So for some, not being fully aware of what’s happening to them or being awake enough to give consent is disturbing. All of the ladies agreed that it wasn’t the foreplay that bothered them (they all welcomed that) , it was the act of penetration.
Kindred made a point later on that I thought was interesting. He said that at our age once we move past the attraction and dating phase, boyfriend and girlfriend titles should mean that a couple has made the decision to move towards the direction of husband/wife. Many of the requests/requirements that we place on our partners are similar to those that you do in marriage. There are some who tie themselves to their partners financially, emotionally and in many other ways before taking vows. We voluntarily place ourselves in so many areas of our partner’s lives without a ceremony. So it’s easy to see where the line can be blurred sexually when it comes to the sharing of your body with your significant other.
All in all, it made me realize just how many discussions we never think to have with our significant others, no matter which end of the relationshp spectrum we’re on. Sometimes, things that we think our loved ones should automatically know and understand aren’t so black and white. In this instance, who would have thought that it would have caused such a divide as it did that night?
I see all this as another example of the differences in the way men and women view secks. Men mostly see it as a physical act with potential for emotional pleasure, and women mostly see it as an emotional act with potential for physical pleasure.
A physical view makes it easier for a man to think its ok to engage in secks while his lady sleeps. But emotionally, she feels violated.
Of course, there are exceptions of both sides of the aisle as your comments have shown. But on thinking more about this, I guess I shouldn’t have been so surprised by the gap between the dudes and dudettes.
“I see all this as another example of the differences in the way men and women view secks. Men mostly see it as a physical act with potential for emotional pleasure, and women mostly see it as an emotional act with potential for physical pleasure. ”
Nail—>ForNOt<—Head
I find it funny how many of us continue to deny that there is a distinct difference in how men and women view sex, but this is one of the many examples in which we are SOOOOOO different.
Even though, on the surface level regarding this subject, I am fully capable of “acting like a man” (understanding and agreeing w/ the men in this scenario) – I still “think like a lady” (completely empathetic towards the womens’ POV). What I found interesting is that,even after attempting to explain and giving examples, most of men are still confused with why this could/would even be a potential issue.
I asked my husband about this. He didn’t consider it rape unless she say’s stop.
I asked him what if he had given his gf money when she wanted and she later took money from his wallet without asking. He said they would have a talk about her not doing it again.
I asked what if his wife did it and he said what is his, is hers.
I think men think they are deserving of no-holds barred sex with a gf based on nothng. But they have a bar held up in most other areas when they aren’t married. IMO, the reason men aren’t married is they want to keep their stuff.
At first, I completely agreed w/ your husband. By definition rape = forced sex. However, when someone threw in the example of the drunk chick/sober guy sex, I realized that we were wandering into a gray area.
I agree that most men think that once they engage in consensual intercourse, they think that it automatically implies no-holds barred sex w/ their girlfriends. But from what I’m seeing from both our conversation here and at the table that night – more couples need to start engaging in frank conversations before engaging in the act.
I think only a dangerous person would say it wasn’t rape to have sex with a person unable to give consent. It’s not gray to me. But I don’t think rape= forced sex. I think it means without consent.
The consent is why we have statutory rape. The minor can be willing and wanting and participate but they lack consent due to age. It’s rape.
In the original scenario the woman can wake up. The man is thinking she will participate. A drugged or drunk woman will not be waking up and lacks the ability to consent. That behavior is predatory.
She summed it up right there about consent. I think that is where the so called “gray area” comes into play with the original question. CONSENT. We assume that in an ongoing sexual relationship, consent is also ongoing…boyfriend/husband/who the heck ever. That’s why I said it should be included in the initial discussion….”we’re going to get it on. How do you feel about getting it on while you’re sleep? Etc, etc, etc…”
What I meant when I said “by definition” is that when you look up the word rape, most definitions will state or imply that it was “forced”. Usually the first thing that pops into a people’s heads is a physically violent act (hitting, fighting, etc) when they hear the term rape. That mindset is why it’s hard for some to wrap their minds around situations that are non-violent (statutory, alcohol induced, etc.). Of course as you guys know, it wasn’t until our generation people even began to openly discuss date rape. I think that it’s easier for women to understand both the non-violent and violent forms of rape than it is for men, which is why up until our generation – date rape and alcohol induced rape were rarely discussed.
I think that as far as consent between couples go, both parties need to be on the same page as far as consent is concerned. And yes, that conversation needs to be disussed right along with other things that go along w/ the sex talk so that there isn’t any miscommunication.